December 31, 2006
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~A Soul is a Soul?~
I have wanted to blog about this subject for a long time, way before Saddam’s death, but never knew how to brooch the subject. I am not at all sorry to see Saddam gone from this earth, good riddance! But truthfully if I was really the Christian I confess to be how could I support the killing of anyone. A soul is a soul, right? I am defiantly pro life but am not necessarily outspoken about the death penalty one way or the other. (Although I am certain innocent people have been put to death.) I did feel very sorry for Karla Faye Tucker and I prayed for her to be pardoned. How can Christians be pro-life and also pro-death penalty? As Christians we really should struggle with this oxymoron. Pro life means, pro life for everyone, right? Esther’s post makes entire sense to me but yet I feel nothing about the death of Saddam (remember the Kurds) and other proven murders. I am not sorry to see them gone from this earth but I would never want to be the person making that decision or doing the actually killing. That is a sin with in itself. I do believe only God can decide when to end a life. There is always hope that someone will come to Christ, even up until they take their last breath, and repent of their sins. Shouldn’t we as Christians not want to take that chance away from anyone? Just as St. John Chrysostom’s Pashca sermon (of the 4th century) says (and I am paraphrasing here) That the Lord will accept even those that come to HIM at the 11th hour. But yet after saying all that I am still not sorry for Saddam.
Comments (26)
Pro-life refers to unborn babies being killed -Innocent!
Pro-death as you call it refers to criminals who have taken others’ lives -Guilty!
Major difference between the two in my eyes.
I don’t disagree. One is innocent and one is guilty.
I agree with everything you said (and until about a year ago or less, I was anti-abortion/pro-death-penalty).
Linda I still can’t say I am anti death penalty even though I know I should be, because as a Christian I know I can’t take the life of another.
it’s a tough question. I don’t think we should take anyone’s life abstractly; when it comes to concrete examples (Saddam Hussein or the Holocaust perpetrators or child molesters/abusers) it becomes more difficult to believe that.
i am not pro death penalty that is for sure. I do pray that God has mercy on his (Saddam’s ) soul.
I was appalled by Saddam’s hanging. Without wanting to stop at the polemic discussion of the death penalty, in my maybe naivety, I think a life should last as long as it lasts naturally, according to reasons only known by God. We have taken away his chance to repent (of course he never would have but this is not our issue). God would have forgiven even him. And now we don’t know and he might be lost forever.
maria.
Oops, I meant to say ‘of course we don’t know of he ever would have’
presvlisa, I understand. I certainly was not “apalled” by the execution, I just think it’s wrong.
I have no feelings of sympathy for Saddam, just as I don’t for Hitler. I don’t hate them, but feel no pity for them either.
To be perfectly honest, I’d have to say I’m apalled at feelings of pity for him because I don’t think those who feel that rarely remember or consider his victims.
Ack. That should read, “…because I think those who feel that rarely remember or consider his victims.”
Maria you said this better then I did, thank you. “I think a life should last as long as it lasts naturally, according to reasons only known by God. “
And yes I agree he wouldn’t have repented anyway.
Linda I feel this way too ,
“I have no feelings of sympathy for Saddam, just as I don’t for Hitler. I don’t hate them, but feel no pity for them either.”
This issue for me has nothing to do with Saddam, it is more about why I as a Christian who understands life begins at conception, that we have a soul from the moment we are conceived and that death should occur naturally according to reasons known only to God, has no problem with the death penalty for those proven guilty of murder. How can I on one hand espouse life but on the other be so indifferent to death of those who do actually deserve to die, although I know I don’t have the right to say that. I would like to say, Lord have mercy on me but am afraid the Lord will on have the amount of mercy on me that I show to others. KWIM?
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Do you think that God is in control of Governments? It is the Government that brings these people to justice through capital punishment.
What about Jesus who also died under a Government authority through hanging on the cross? This shows more than any other event in history how much God is in control of Government choices!
What about the two thiefs that hung on each side of Christ? One excepted Christ on his last breath even though brought to justice for his wrong doing.
What about when God told the Isrealites to wipe out their enemies -Philistines and Canaanites – was that not proper justice or should they have told God no because they are pro-life?
If we don’t believe in capital punishment then how can we possibly support any kind of war? Should we not kill to even defend our country or others who are being unjustily mistreated by another government?
All of these things above are very Biblical and I think there is plenty in the Bible that defends an eye for an eye….
Just aspects to ponder…
ACK!! Sorry for the spelling errors… “excepted” should have been “accepted” I’m sure there are more as I am being silly with the kids and having fun discussing this at the same time. :fun:
Well yes this is the argument but we are under the new covenant now and have new life in Christ and we know from Christ’s teaching that His message was all about love, repentance and forgiveness. He taught us to forgive so that we maybe forgiven he preached against vengeance. Again though in all honesty I don’t have any strong feelings against murders being put to death. It does seem counter to my belief in Christ’s teachings though.
I support the war to protect our country and our religious freedoms and this is what governments are for, to protect their people. The Greeks and Orthodox Christians all over the world, for hundreds of centuries, have fought long and hard to preserve their freedoms and their faith in Christ. When Fr. saw I posted this he knew it would turn into a political discussion. I don’t mean it to be as such… I am just examining my conscience.
I’m not sorry that Saddam was executed just as I’m not sorry that Hilter and all other dictators that did the devil’s work are gone. I understand the arguement against the death penalty because God gives life and only He has the right to take it away. I also read in the Old Testament how under the law of Moses God authorized the death penalty as punishment for certain offences. I don’t understand why but God had his reasons for this. I do understand now we live under the new law and we have the blessing of God’s mercy and in turn we must show mercy to others. I personally find it a struggle to show mercy or compassion to those who murder innocent people and ESPECIALLY those who harm and do the unthinkable to children. Jesus has a deep love for children as is evident in the 4 gospels. Do I think God will judge these wicked people for their acts? Yes I do. Do governments have the right to use capital punishment? All crimes (sins) have their consequence. I don’t know the answer but I do know that after the horror that Saddam has inflicted on so many, God forgive me but I do not feel any sadness at all that he is gone. I do have to say that I would not want to meet my Maker in his shoes.
As to one of the comments above……..I do agree that he probably would not have repented if he was allowed to live. People can harden their hearts to the point that the devil has them firmly in his grasp. Let us pray for our leaders that they will not let their hearts be hardened to this point. Let us pray that they will seek guidance from God and seek to do His will. If we as a nation, as a world, turn away from Him, we are doomed to repeat history……………we will fall as many great nations have fallen before us.
May God have mercy on ALL our souls.
Thank you for that Maria; I couldn’t have said it better myself. I feel the same way.
:love: Lisa, I’m mearly thinking out loud myself. I have no real conclusion on this aspect either. It feels just as confusing to me as well! It’s actually ironic that you mentioned this today because the night Saddam was put to death I told Eric I had such mixed feelings and I began praying for his soul big time. I even shared on hearthkeepers that I was so mixed emotionally on the whole thing. My heart of compassion for a soul cannot conceive of a man being put to death unnaturally but then also in my heart I am down right sickened with the injustice that particular man did to thousands of innocent souls. Thank the Lord that it is HE who is ultimately in control and I am glad that it is HE that knows the answers to these questions. I am also glad that it is God who ultimately judges and not I.
I am not troubled at all about Saddam. Maybe that is why I am thinking out loud too. You should see photos of what he has done to people; he deserved to die a long time ago. I have been wanting to blog on the issue of pro-life and the death penalty only because the one that I truly believe in with all my heart, that abortion is murder, and the other one with which I really don’t have a problem the, death penalty just don’t seem to jive. One less murder on this planet doesn’t phase me in the least but I am very saddened at the thought that people don’t think an unborn baby has a soul or is really a living person. I do have compassion for those people whose lives are so messed up that they become murders but I also have compassion for their victims. I really have compassion for those murders who recognize their sin and repent for their sins, I would have a hard time seeing those people put to death, such as in the case of Karla Faye Tucker, I would have liked to see her pardoned. Those that come REALLY do repent and weep for the wrong the have done and the pain the have caused. I hope to God I never have to be tested , but I wonder sometimes if I could truly forgive the person that harmed me or my family member. I would hope I could, because if I couldn’t I think I would be so eaten up with hate that I would ruin my own life and those around me and I don’t think I would have a good defense at the dread judgment seat of God.
Corrie Ten Boom… one of the most amazing examples of forgiveness to me! After all I have read on her I wondered myself if I could have ever forgiven as she did after such torment. I would like to think because of the very fact that we are even concerned that we would be afraid of not forgiving that we would be the very one’s who would be more likely too. Is that prideful to think? Or do you agree that our hearts are so in tune with what Christ has done for us that we would?
I think you are right. The nun that was just shot recently said, “I forgive” as she was shot. I would like to think I might utter the same words, I have no idea the first words that would come to mind though. I think I could forgive easier what is done to me more then I could against one of my children. Although I wouldn’t want to live the rest of my life bitter and I would have to trust that God’s will had been done. I would hope that by forgiving like the sister did it would give my children some peace to know that is how I left this world and that I fought the good fight and ran the race…
Don’t forget that Corrie had several occasions when she was face to face with former persecutors (jailers) and had to Choose to forgive. It is not easy, and mercy is our calling. But, there is a sense in which God uses us humans to carry out His justice. I do not mean to say (nor do I hope that people will see it that way) that the people who did the hanging were God’s choice of instruments. I heard on the news tonight that they taunted Saddam up until the moment the trapdoor fell.:nono: Yet I am in favor of the punishment of death be visited against murderers. (Thank you to “faintstarlite” for the link)
If you want to see more of my thoughts on the execution, I posted today on this issue under Capitol Punishment at pb49r. AL
Happy New Year
When considering a person’s life, I have never considered it acceptable to intentionally, in a calculated planned action cause the death of anyone, regardless of their crime or sin. The breath of God, ruach – the creative force only given and taken by God – should be considered within the realm of God’s control. A sentence of lifetime, punative solitary confinement in a 8×8 foot cell with release for 1 hour every day would be considered removing the life from an individual without having breeched the area of the only gift God can bestow or withhold. This kind of confinement could never be considered cruel or unusual.
Peace is never found within the violence of taking a life. Reconciliation is never formed through revenge or retribution. The feeling of emptiness simply grows larger and deeper. What I have found disturbing about the whole execution matter was the aspect of its “news worthy” video play upon television, during anytime of day. Other types of executions have occurred and my children have never known about them (my preference – I limit the amount of violence and anger my young children observe through the news.) Morning, noon and night this story was broadcast on our news station and radio…and the vivd pictures happened too quickly for me to catch the channel and change. The explicit visual images simply rank of wrongness – of taking life and abusing the presence of facts into creating a “story” to be seen globally. In church this morning my youngest wanted to pray for the man who got hung, totally misunderstanding the entire series of circumstances of horror his life and choices have created. In the presence of this reality, she reacted as anyone who values life should – she was scared that anyone could do that to anyone.
I regret the length of this comment and the plainness it voices. This is not criticism to your judgement or to others…it is not in response to others comments, simply a response to my own conscious.
Lisa, I feel exactly the same way you do. I think Saddam was a very vile evil man. The likelihood that he would have continued his diabolical plan to carry out torture/death to innocent lives seems immenent. I was relieved to see him not able to do this to anyone anymore. But my stomach was sick, and I was actually scared seeing this. But I was relieved for us all, because of his power, and insanity. I am glad that I was not one the one to pull that lever. Confused????? You bet.
I don’t feel bad about Saddam. But nonetheless, I feel we did wrong by killing him. The death penalty is barbaric, and is just doing unto others as they did unto us. It’s not doing anything to create peace, or show the higher road. It’s just fodder for more hatred and strife between people. Keeping him locked up and taken care of for the rest of his life would have been a much better choice.
Interesting concepts.
I found myself wondering what should I be feeling when I learned that the man was being hanged. I really struggled with it. On the one hand I knew in my heart I should be praying for this man’s soul. On the other, I knew there were many people who were glad to see him die. I wasn’t one of them. Who are we to look at what he did to other people? Are our own sins not just as appalling to our Lord, and devastating to those around us? Just because we’re not the head of a nation, and projected by reporters and don’t have all that political power, like he had, doesn’t lessen the severity of our own sin. In fact, I am appalled that my own heart was hardened to the point that I had to actually ask what I should be feeling inside, pertaining to this matter.
I don’t know if the man would have ever repented or not, or even if he did, and I can’t repent for him. But, I can pray for him. And I can pray for his victims.
I know I am struggling with examining my own heart. I will certainly be seeking the council of my spiritual father for this matter.
Sometimes, I have to remind myself that it’s not the sins of another that endangers my soul, it’s my own sins. And I struggle to concern myself with only my own sins, and to pray for those around me, because, Lord knows, my sins make others look like saints.
Just remember “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what measure ye meet, it will be measured to you, again.” Matt. 7:1. (This is one of my favorite passages).
Before I started working for the department of corrections, I was without a doubt pro-death penalty. I truly believed an eye for an eye, but now I work in a prison and while none of the guys I see on a day to day basis have the death penalty, infact none of our inmates are condemed to death, I just don’t know. We have an orderly who works in our area who is a very young guy, he is in prison for the rest of his life, for murder. This is a pretty respectful young man, who seems to have a very good raport with all staff members and his peers. Don’t get me wrong, I am not complaicent, I know what he is convicted of and I know what his record says he did. I also know that it would be very difficult for me to look at this guy on a day to day basis and know that the state is going to take his life and not feel something. Everyone has a soul, good or bad. I get all these crying mothers, fathers, sisters, girlfriends etc… wanting to see, talk to or get a letter from theses guys. When I have had 10 or so of theses in a day it does tend to get a bit nerve wracking, but , I have to remind myself no matter what they have done, someone somewhere loves them, everyone’s life has value, has meaning, someone grieves for this person who is locked up, or condemed to death. The flip side of all that that makes it hard not to say they deserve to pay the ultimate crime for thier crime, is the victim(s) of thier crime had someone who loved them, needed them, and knew thier lives had meaning.